Transcript·文字實錄

在上一期節(jié)目中，我們提出：是什么讓大家如此關(guān)注食品安全？我們試圖首先理清大家經(jīng)常遇到的三種食品風(fēng)險。我們的嘉賓說道，一方面，公眾對這些風(fēng)險存在誤解，從而經(jīng)常產(chǎn)生對食品安全的恐慌。但另一方面，真正的食品安全問題也確實存在。一位嘉賓提到，政府對食品安全實行分段管理。這種體制到底是怎樣的？如何運作？我們怎樣做才能讓我們的食品更加安全？

In our last episode, we asked what concerns people so much about China's food safety. We tried to look at the question by first sorting out three types of food risks or dangers we often face. Our guests said, while misunderstandings or misconceptions about these risks might often contribute to people's health scares, real food-safety issues also exist. One of the guests mentioned, the government divides the supervision of food safety into separate parts. What exactly is the system like? How does it work? And what can we do to make our food safer?

根據(jù)2009年2月通過的《食品安全法》，國務(wù)院成立了食品安全委員會來監(jiān)督一系列部門。大致說來，農(nóng)業(yè)部門監(jiān)管農(nóng)產(chǎn)品，包括動物飼料和殺蟲劑。質(zhì)量監(jiān)督部門負責(zé)監(jiān)管在工廠生產(chǎn)的食品。工商部門監(jiān)管食品銷售。食品藥品管理部門監(jiān)管餐飲業(yè)。衛(wèi)生部門評估食品安全風(fēng)險、制定食品安全標(biāo)準(zhǔn)和檢驗規(guī)范，這些需要衛(wèi)生部門和其他相關(guān)部門協(xié)力完成。衛(wèi)生部門還需要組織查處重大食品安全事故。同時，公安部門處理食品安全違法犯罪案件。據(jù)媒體報道，包括這五個部門一共有十幾個政府部門監(jiān)管中國的食品安全。

According to China's Food Safety Law, which was passed in February 2009, the State Council established the Food Safety Committee to oversee a chain of departments. Roughly speaking, the agricultural department supervises agricultural products, which include animal feed and pesticides. The quality supervision department is in charge of food production in factories. The industry and commerce department oversees food sales. The food and drug department is responsible for catering services. The health department assesses food-safety risks, formulates food-safety standards, as well as determines inspection requirements. It does this by working with the relevant departments mentioned before. The health department also organizes investigations into major food-safety accidents. At the same time, the public security department handles crimes related to food safety. According to media reports, including these five major departments, there are more than a dozen government agencies involved in China's food-safety supervision.

我們走訪了北京的一個區(qū)級質(zhì)檢部門，希望借此讓您大致了解這個龐大的監(jiān)管鏈條中的一環(huán)是如何運轉(zhuǎn)的。

We visited a district quality supervision department in Beijing, hoping to give you a glimpse into how just one part of this massive chain operates.

史長青告訴我們，他們對食品的質(zhì)檢包括三個部分：第一，對原料和輔料的檢查，包括所有添加劑。

Shi Changqing showed us that supervision of food safety involves three parts: first, the inspection of raw and auxiliary material, including all the additives.

史長青：首先我們從標(biāo)識標(biāo)注上來看，一個是成分，都包括什么，還有它的功能，包括生產(chǎn)許可證。像我們現(xiàn)在看到的，就是一個生產(chǎn)許可證，這是生產(chǎn)許可的一個標(biāo)識，說明這個食品添加劑是執(zhí)行生產(chǎn)許可證的。

Shi Changqing: First of all, we check the label and packages to see what an additive is made of, what it is used for and its production permit. Like this, this is a production permit. This is the logo of the permit. It means the food additive has its legal permit.

第二，生產(chǎn)線和工作環(huán)境的檢查。第三，成品的檢查，包括外包裝和有效期。大部分的檢查過程包含檢查一個公司的檔案和記錄，以及肉眼觀察。只有到了第三部分，質(zhì)檢人員才會將抽查樣品帶回實驗室，對該公司所公布的食品成分進行驗證。每年質(zhì)檢部門會對所有注冊的食品公司分別進行兩次例行檢查和抽樣檢查。

Second, the production line and working space. And third, the final products, including things like packages and expiration dates. Most of the inspection process involves checking the company's files and records, as well as naked-eye observation. Only in the third part will department officials take product samples back to the lab to verify the company's declared ingredients list. The quality supervision department does two such routine inspections and two spot checks a year with every registered food company.

馮欣：您今天跟我介紹了三個環(huán)節(jié)，從原料到生產(chǎn)過程，到成品。這三個環(huán)節(jié)一般比較容易出問題的是哪個環(huán)節(jié)？

Feng Xin: Today you explained three stages of your supervision to me –from raw material, to production and final products. Which stage is most likely to have a problem?

史長青：一般容易出問題的是在原料把關(guān)這方面，它的內(nèi)在質(zhì)量還需要第三方的檢驗來控制產(chǎn)品質(zhì)量。

Shi Changqing: Generally speaking, raw material is the most vulnerable. That's why its inner-quality needs to be guaranteed by a third-party agency's examination.

史長青提到的第三方檢驗機構(gòu)，是指政府審批認證的實驗室。一家公司在由質(zhì)檢部門檢驗以前，必須先進行自檢并委托一家第三方檢驗機構(gòu)提供一份獨立的檢驗報告。順義區(qū)質(zhì)檢局有自己的檢驗所，它扮演著兩個角色：第一是檢測由質(zhì)檢執(zhí)法人員送來的產(chǎn)品抽查樣品，第二是接受各個公司的委托作為第三方機構(gòu)提供質(zhì)檢報告。另一方面，食品公司必須將其使用的所有原料和添加劑在外包裝上向監(jiān)管部門和消費者明示。但這又有多大幫助呢？

The third-party examination agencies Shi mentioned are government-qualified labs. Before a company is inspected by the quality supervision department, it has to do its own lab tests and entrust a third-party examination agency to provide a separate report. The Shunyi District Quality Supervision Department has its own lab. The lab plays two roles: One is to test product samples the supervision staff collects from inspection; another is to receive companies' entrustment to provide quality reports as a third-party lab. Companies, on the other hand, have to declare all the ingredients and substances they use – not only to authorities but also to consumers – on their packages. But how helpful is such a practice?

馮欣：我們很多時候在買某種食品的時候都會看食品的包裝，看它的配料是什么，都有些什么樣的添加劑，但很大的一個問題是看不懂。

Feng Xin: When we buy food, we will often check its package to see what ingredients there are and what additives there are. But a big problem is we don't understand what the package says.

嚴(yán)衛(wèi)星：我覺得首先大家要分開一下，食品添加劑跟非食用物質(zhì)是兩個完全不同的概念。你剛剛就講了“非法添加劑”。因為這個容易搞混，老百姓經(jīng)常搞混。所以我們也想逐步跟大家把這個概念捋一捋。食品添加劑是合法使用的，剩下的那些非食用的東西，我們叫非食用物質(zhì)。

Yan Weixing: I think first of all we need to distinguish two terms: food additives and non-edible substances. They are completely different concepts. You just mentioned "illegal additives". It's easy to be confused (about them), and people often are. We also wanted to explain to the public about some basic concepts. Food additives are legal. Non-edible things added to food are called non-edible substances.

馮欣：那其實就是說，非食用物質(zhì)根本就不會寫在食品的背后。

Feng Xin: That is to say, non-edible substances will never be labeled on the package in the first place.

嚴(yán)衛(wèi)星：禁止使用的，它不可能往食品中加，加了就得嚴(yán)厲打擊它。有些偷偷摸摸加了他也不會告訴你的。過去奶粉加了三聚氰胺他能告訴你嗎？他不會在奶粉里配料寫上“我加了三聚氰胺”。

Yan Weixing: Of course not. They are forbidden. They cannot be put into food. If somebody does, he or she should be punished severely. Even if they added non-edible substances to food, they would not tell you. In the scandal of tainted milk powder, the manufacturer never specified melamine on its ingredient list.

馮欣：那比如說合法的食品添加劑，剛才我們講到了過量使用也會造成安全的隱患。

Feng Xin: Then, what about legal food additives? Overuse of them will also pose a safety threat.

嚴(yán)衛(wèi)星：國家有相應(yīng)的標(biāo)準(zhǔn)規(guī)定食品添加劑的使用范圍和使用量，都有嚴(yán)格的標(biāo)準(zhǔn)。只要按照標(biāo)準(zhǔn)來做的，那應(yīng)該不會有問題。

Yan Weixing: China has relevant requirements and standards that specify the proper range and dosage of food additives. The standards are strict. As long as food is produced according to standards, there should be no problem.

馮欣：像我們老百姓怎么去判斷這個呢？

Feng Xin: How can we, as ordinary people, identify this?

嚴(yán)衛(wèi)星：我們現(xiàn)在標(biāo)簽上要求生產(chǎn)企業(yè)要標(biāo)出來，要全部明示。后臺政府還在加強管理、加強監(jiān)督，包括在生產(chǎn)過程會嚴(yán)格監(jiān)督。有的時候市場上也會抽查一些產(chǎn)品進行一些分析檢測，多重手段來保障這些東西。

Yan Weixing: We require food producers to label all their ingredients on their packages. The government also keeps strengthening its role in supervising and regulating production processes. Sometimes spot checks are carried out for analysis and examination. So there are multiple means to ensure food safety.

馮欣：有沒有一種可能性：生產(chǎn)的廠家明明添加了過量的食品添加劑——

Feng Xin: Is there a possibility that the the food producer has overdosed food additives but–

嚴(yán)衛(wèi)星：這種現(xiàn)象存在，這也是我們要嚴(yán)厲打擊的一個方面，叫濫用食品添加劑，濫用的概念就包括超范圍使用和超量使用，這種現(xiàn)象是存在。為什么我們要公布一些濫用食品添加劑的名單呢？這幾個名單里的這幾種添加劑是在我們的經(jīng)驗里面發(fā)現(xiàn)比較容易濫用的。所以我們也廣泛告知，讓群眾監(jiān)督、讓媒體監(jiān)督，讓監(jiān)管部門也有個提示。我們發(fā)布這些東西只是對那些已知的東西，未知的東西你就很難弄了，未知的化學(xué)物質(zhì)成千上萬種。

Yan Weixing: Such cases do exist. That's what we need to seriously fight against. It's called abuse of food additives. This includes out-of-range usage and overdose. Such a phenomenon does exist. That's why we published blacklists of manufacturers that abuse food additives. In these lists, we identified that some additives are often likely to be overused from our past experiences. So we publish them to raise the media and public's awareness, as well as to remind supervision agencies. However, what we published is known material only. It is very difficult to identify unknown substances. There are tens of thousands of them.

馮欣：對于一些沒有規(guī)定的內(nèi)容，尤其是非食用物質(zhì)，你們怎么檢測出來呢？

Feng Xin: How do you test substances that are not specified by law, especially non-edible substances? How do you do that?

鄒蘭香：現(xiàn)在是這樣的，如果有標(biāo)準(zhǔn)物質(zhì)，具體物質(zhì)，根據(jù)不同的國家方法，我們才能做（檢測）。國家沒方法的，我們這個機構(gòu)也不做，因為沒有一些法律依據(jù)。我們這機構(gòu)必須是國家方法。

Zou Lanxiang: Now the situation is that only when there are standardized substances, definite substances, can we carry out tests by following standardized national procedures. When there are no national procedures, we cannot perform any tests, because there wouldn't be any legal basis. Our institution has to follow national procedures.

馮欣：什么叫做國家方法？

Feng Xin: What do you mean by national procedures?

鄒蘭香：國家已經(jīng)公布的或者是認定的一些方法。我們檢測還要經(jīng)過認證、授權(quán)，才能出具報告。

Zou Lanxiang: They are authorized and publicized procedures. Our examination also needs to be accredited and authorized before we can release a report.

這就是說，質(zhì)檢部門只能檢測那些已知的、已由法律鑒定的物質(zhì)，未知的物質(zhì)不能被檢驗出來。但當(dāng)食品安全事件發(fā)生時，食品安全監(jiān)管部門如何確認在生產(chǎn)流程中，是哪個環(huán)節(jié)出了問題呢？

That is to say, quality-inspection agencies can only test known substances that have already been identified and required by law. Unknown substances cannot be tested. But when an accident happens, how do food-safety enforcement agencies identify which part of the chain caused the problem?

史長青：一般現(xiàn)在的大型企業(yè)產(chǎn)品的追溯性比較強，從生產(chǎn)的批次就能查到產(chǎn)品是什么時候生產(chǎn)的。各個部門，包括初級農(nóng)產(chǎn)品，包括生產(chǎn)的產(chǎn)品、市場，每個部門都有一個強大的應(yīng)急機制。首先得掌握是因為什么出現(xiàn)了問題，是本身的產(chǎn)品帶來的，還是由于添加劑帶入的，或者是輔料帶入的，馬上可以查到的。這幾個監(jiān)管部門都會同時出動的，工商局會到市場去抽檢產(chǎn)品，我們主要是到生產(chǎn)企業(yè)抽（查）產(chǎn)品馬上檢驗，就能很快分析出產(chǎn)品出現(xiàn)問題的原因，馬上召回有產(chǎn)品質(zhì)量問題的產(chǎn)品。

Shi Changqing: For large food manufacturers, products are easily traced. We can find out when a product is produced by checking its batch number. Supervision departments cover raw agricultural material, food production and sales. Every department has a strong emergency response system. We will first figure out what caused the problem, whether it's the product itself, addictives or auxiliary material. We can immediately find that out. The supervision departments will act together. The industrial and commerce department will collect samples from the market. We will mainly collect samples from the production line and carry out a test. We can quickly find out what causes the problem and recall all the products.

馮欣：會有說不清楚的時候嗎？

Feng Xin: Was there ever a case when you couldn't tell what went wrong?

史長青：沒有，基本上都能查清。

Shi Changqing: No. We basically can figure out all the cases.

盡管食品安全的分段管理看似具體——尤其是對大企業(yè)而言，但食品安全鏈條的實際運行情況通常更加復(fù)雜。比如這個假設(shè)的例子，一頭豬吃了被工業(yè)原料污染的飼料，之后被運往一家香腸加工廠做成香腸。在生產(chǎn)過程中，生產(chǎn)者在生肉中添加了非食用物質(zhì)使香腸看上去更新鮮。之后，一個沒有經(jīng)營許可證的小販烤了這些香腸，推著小車，沿街售賣。哪個部門應(yīng)該負責(zé)？

While the division of food-safety supervision looks quite specific, especially for big food companies, the food-safety chain is often more complex. Here is a hypothetical example. A pig eats its feed that's been poisoned by industrial chemicals. When it goes to a sausage factory, the manufacturer adds some non-edible substance to the raw meat to make the product appear fresher. When an unlicensed seller barbeques some of these sausages and then sells them in a mobile food cart, which departments are responsible?

根據(jù)一項2011年的調(diào)查，該調(diào)查由清華大學(xué)和《小康》雜志聯(lián)合發(fā)起——《小康》是中共機關(guān)刊物《求是》下的一本雜志。在來自全國各省的1000位受訪者中，一半以上的人對中國目前的食品安全狀況不滿意。55%以上受訪者認為政府對食品安全的監(jiān)管力度不夠。

According to a 2011 survey conducted by Tsinghua University and "Insight China", a magazine under the Chinese Communist Party publication "Qiushi", more than 50 percent of the 1,000 respondents from all Chinese provinces were not satisfied with China's current food safety. More than 55 percent believed the government's enforcement of food safety is not sufficient.

我們在演播室撥打了云無心的電話，他寫過幾本關(guān)于食品安全的著作，現(xiàn)在正在美國普渡大學(xué)食品工程系攻讀博士研究生。

We called Yunwuxin from our studio. He is an author who has written several books on food safety and is currently doing his PhD studies in Food Engineering at Purdue University in the United States.

馮欣：云無心先生，您認為公眾的看法是否反映了真實的情況？

Feng Xin: Mr Yunwuxin, do you think the public's perception reflects the real situation?

云無心：我覺得我們國家違反食品安全的成本還是太低。在美國，如果一個企業(yè)違反了食品標(biāo)準(zhǔn)，如果說它是惡意的，這個企業(yè)可能就活不過來了。而我們國家現(xiàn)在的問題是，如果你這個企業(yè)非常大，你出一點事情，只要沒到人神共憤的地步，好像地方政府還要保護你，還要給你行個方便，或者這個企業(yè)通過各種社會關(guān)系、媒體關(guān)系，把這個事件擺平，就過去了。如果你是個小企業(yè)那就無所謂了，小企業(yè)受點罰，倒閉了，改頭換面從頭再來，現(xiàn)在的執(zhí)法對他們形不成致命的打擊。

Yunwuxin: I think the cost for violating food-safety law in China is too low. In the US, if a company violates food-production standards, if intentionally, the company is likely to die. But in China, if a company is big enough, when something goes wrong, as long as it's not an unspeakable crime, the local government usually protects it or lets it pass. Or the company will pull its strings with the media and all kinds of connections to put the matter off. If the company is small, then that's not to matter at all. It gets a little punishment and shut down, before it comes back with a brand new identity. So the law enforcement cannot deter them.

馮欣：那還有別的原因嗎？

Feng Xin: Are there any other reasons?

云無心：其實核心的問題，首先是中國的食品監(jiān)管部門太多，而且互相之間責(zé)權(quán)不清，總是有灰色地帶。有好處的時候大家都要上去，有麻煩的時候大家都互相推諉，灰色地帶的存在就提供了這樣的機會。有不止一個部門可以管，但是都不管。當(dāng)然還有一點，就是回到國情上來，我們有那么多的小企業(yè)。我曾經(jīng)跟一位工商局的朋友聊過，他說他們現(xiàn)在一個工作人員要管轄區(qū)內(nèi)的幾百個企業(yè)。即使每天馬不停蹄地工作，那么平均下來一天你就能走一個企業(yè)。如果你一天走五個企業(yè)，就意味著一年你最多也去不了一個企業(yè)幾次，管理起來也是力不從心。這種錯綜復(fù)雜的局面，就造成了現(xiàn)在監(jiān)管起來也很不容易。

Yunwuxin: The crux lies in the fact that there are too many supervision departments and their responsibilities are not clear. Gray areas always exist. When there is a cake, everybody wants a slice. When there is trouble, all shy away. The existence of gray areas provides such opportunities. There is more than one department that can supervise, but none of them do. Of course, China also has its circumstances. We have so many small companies. I once talked to a friend working in an industry and commerce department. He said every staff member in his bureau is responsible for a few hundred companies in their district. Even if he or she works around the clock, the officer can only inspect one company a day on average. If he or she inspects five companies a day, he or she can check a company no more than a few times a year. It is very difficult. All these complicated situations make the supervision difficult.

食品安全監(jiān)管的鏈條常常龐大復(fù)雜，那有沒有可能把各個監(jiān)管部門協(xié)調(diào)起來？

While the food-safety chain is often massive and complex, is it possible to coordinate different supervision departments?

馮欣：這么多的部門怎么樣才能合作起來？

Feng Xin: How can so many different departments be coordinated?

嚴(yán)衛(wèi)星：政府建立了一個協(xié)調(diào)機制，由國務(wù)院食安辦來負責(zé)綜合協(xié)調(diào)，有問題把各部門召集在一起，共同來討論、來協(xié)商，建立起無縫的銜接，國家又建立了這么一個協(xié)調(diào)的工作機制。

Yan Weixing: The government has established a coordination mechanism, which is the Food Safety Committee under the State Council. When there are problems, it calls together relevant departments for discussion and consultation in order to make a seamless connection. The government established such a mechanism.

馮欣：您剛剛說到這個詞，“無縫的銜接”，銜接的可能性有多大？操作性有多大？

Feng Xin: You mentioned the word "seamless". How is that possible? How practical is that?

嚴(yán)衛(wèi)星：這就需要我們進一步完善包括我們的監(jiān)管體制，找到最適合中國的監(jiān)管體制，大家都在實踐中不斷地探索、不斷地摸索。

Yan Weixing: This requires us to further improve our coordination system, including our supervision system. We need to find out the most suitable supervision system for China. We have been constantly exploring solutions.

馮欣：在您看來，適合中國的管理方式是什么？

Feng Xin: In your opinion, what's the most suitable supervision system for China?

嚴(yán)衛(wèi)星：現(xiàn)在分段管理的方式我們才剛剛建立起來，還需要摸索、探討，看哪一種是最適合中國的管理的方式。大家也在討論，在國際社會也有多部門管的，也有少數(shù)幾個部門管的。分部門管理越多，它就存在銜接和縫隙的問題。部門少，它肯定就不存在協(xié)調(diào)的問題，但是部門少又存在部門少的問題，你的能力、力量等。

Yan Weixing: We just established the system where we divide the supervision into separate parts. We still need to experiment and explore to see what works best for China. We've also been discussing that there are multi-department supervision systems in the world and there are also systems with fewer departments. The more divisions there are, the more problems in coordination there are. If there are fewer supervision departments, there will be fewer problems like this, but new problems will arise, such as resources and capabilities, and so on.

馮欣：云無心先生，您覺得適合中國的、一個理想的食品監(jiān)管模式應(yīng)該是什么樣的？

Feng Xin: Mr Yunwuxin, what's your idea of an ideal food-safety supervision model for China?

云無心：這個我思考過，我也跟一些業(yè)內(nèi)人士交流過，結(jié)論是現(xiàn)在我們都提不出一個理想的方案。因為國外的那些方案也不大可能挪到中國，中國有中國的國情和現(xiàn)實。

Yunwuxin: I have thought about this question and also exchanged ideas with professionals. We concluded that we cannot think of an ideal model. We cannot copy other countries' supervision systems, because China has its unique circumstances.

馮欣：也有人說食品安全問題，我們國家現(xiàn)在存在的食品安全問題是現(xiàn)階段經(jīng)濟發(fā)展必經(jīng)的，西方國家已經(jīng)經(jīng)歷過了。對這種觀點您的看法是什么？

Some say the food-safety issues that China is facing now are inevitable given our current stage of economic development, while western countries have already gone through. What do you think?

云無心：我覺得也不是一點道理沒有，但是我們不能把它作為一個借口，說因為我們國家的經(jīng)濟現(xiàn)狀就是這樣，所以它的存在就是合理的，我們就應(yīng)該默認。不管它產(chǎn)生的原因是什么樣的，我們都沒有理由去被動地接受。有意義的事情是，問題在那兒，我們現(xiàn)在應(yīng)該怎么辦，怎么去解決它。

Yunwuxin: I think the opinion has its grounding, but we can't use that as an excuse and say, 'Because of our stage of economic development, anything that's happening is justifiable, and we should accept it'. No matter what caused the problems, we have no reason to passively accept them. What's meaningful is that we know where the problems lie and what we can do and how we should fix them.

Archive · 往期

Watching China’s budget
解析中國預(yù)算

How can ordinary people make sense of China's budget?
普通人如何能弄懂中國的預(yù)算？

What makes it difficult for graduates to find jobs?
大學(xué)生就業(yè)難，難在哪？

Why do we often hear stories about college graduates unable to find jobs? -- 為什么我們經(jīng)常聽到畢業(yè)生找不到工作的事？

Does China have enough jobs for college graduates?招工難，難在哪？

What makes it difficult for employers to recruit enough workers? And what makes it difficult for job seekers to find such employers? 是什么造成了用人單位的“招工難”？又是什么讓求職者難以找到這些雇主？

Does China have enough money to fund its pensioners?
中國有沒有足夠的養(yǎng)老錢？

How much money can we receive after we retire? At what age should we start planning our retirement? 退休后我們到底能領(lǐng)多少錢？到什么年齡應(yīng)該計劃養(yǎng)老問題？

Should Chinese people retire later?
中國人是否應(yīng)該晚退休？

In what social context is the government’s proposal to push back China's retirement age rooted? 6月5日，人力資源和社會保障部提出，未來會逐步將退休年齡推遲五年。這樣做有什么深層的社會原因？

Illegal immigrants: China's rise as a land of opportunity?
“三非”外國人：中國成為機會之地？

Is the increase of incidents involving illegal immigrants a symbol of China's rise as a land of opportunity? -- "三非"外國人日益增多，是否意味著中國成為機會的土壤？

Legislating domestic violence in China: Concepts - 中國反家庭暴力立法：概念

Digest China explores the concept of domestic violence and the difficulty in proving it. 本期探討“家庭暴力”這個概念的本身和取證的困難。

Legislating domestic violence in China: Obstacles - 中國反家庭暴力立法：難點

Digest China explores some decade-long obstacles and difficulties in the process. 本期《解析中國》探討中國反家庭暴力立法進程中長期存在的阻力和分歧。